The Power of PR and Print


Disclaimer: Work Wife Wine Time promotes the responsible consumption of alcohol. And remember, a bottle of wine shared with your work wife is a bottle halved between you and makes for a marvellous damn time. 

Rowena 0:24  In this episode, I Rowena will be talking to Nikki and Larine of Crush Communications, a dynamic work wife duo with a passion for all things PR, print and marketing. I’ve had the absolute pleasure of seeing this team in action as head designer for their local lifestyle publication. Crash magazine truly showcases their passion for their hometown by encouraging people to fall in love with the Bundaberg region. If you would like to see more jump over to www.crushmagazine.com.au. There you’ll find the current issue, the picnic issue and due to drop in September, the Salt issue. Right, let’s jump into it ladies. I want to know a little bit about what makes you guys tick in a work wife relationship. But the most pivotal question has to be, what is your drink of choice?

Nikki 1:15 Drink of choice. I am a whiskey drinker, mainly Canadian whiskey is my drink of choice. I just can’t go past it.

Larine 1:26 Normally, I’m a wine girl. But lately I’ve been a little bit partial to French pear martinis.

Rowena 1:33  Fancy. So the next question is around, obviously you guys are in a communications business together. And I know for a fact that you guys have distinct areas that you both work in. So what would you call your zones of genius in your business within your business?

Nikki 1:48 Well, for me, I’m sort of more into the marketing, digital marketing, social media, EDM, you know, traditional marketing, content creation, which I think is sort of where we crossover as well. But yeah, mine’s more the content creation on the marketing side of things.

Larine 2:07 And my background is in public relations. And I love doing the really strategic nitty gritty, persuasive, you know, big financial deals, you know, controversial issues in the community, that sort of thing. So that’s sort of what I do from the PR perspective, but I was a journalist for a lot of years. And so I would consider myself a bit of a wordsmith, and creative writing is my jam as well.

Rowena 2:30 How did you guys meet and decide that this was something you were going to make a work relationship as well as a friendship?

Nikki 2:37 Well, we actually met at work. So we both were journos at a local paper. So that’s sort of where our friendship began and…

Larine 2:44 Nikki was my boss and used to criticise what I wore all the time because I…

Nikki 2:49 Only when she woke brightly coloured bras under see-through shirts…

Larine 2:54 I was young Okay, give me a break.

Nikki 2:57 It was definitely not the worst outfit that I’ve had to send people home for, that’s for sure. But I was the chief of staff at the time and Rine was journo. So we saw that that’s sort of where our friendship began. And then we sort of roughly kept in contact over the years, Larine moved around a lot. I never went anywhere. Larine got to have all these amazing exciting different career opportunities and career paths. And but it was probably not until Larine sort of moved back here that we sort of just started talking about these ideas, and I’ve sort of just kept saying to Larine. “Oh, yeah. I’ve always loved the idea of having my own business.” Whereas Larine was more like, “I’m going to do this and I’m going to do that”. Yeah, it’s sort of just…

Larine 3:07 And then I begged her and harassed her until she agreed to leave her full time…

Nikki 3:39 See that’s the persuasiveness coming through. I would never, I would definitely not say begged, I think…

Larine 3:46 There was a bit of arm twisting and a few scotches bought.

Rowena 3:48 But did she ever grovel on her hands and knees. That’s the question.

Larine 3:53 I did consider it.

Nikki 3:55 In hindsight, I wish I had’ve like made her but…

Larine 3:59 Oh you are kidding

Nikki 4:03 But I think it was to, you know, it sort of was born out of starting the magazine and it just it sounded like a great idea. I love the idea of getting back into media and I think, you know, Larine’s always had such a clear vision for what it was going to be and and not even like a vision of for when it started, but like, a vision into the future of like, where it was going to go long term. And it was sort of just it was a bit of a no brainer, really,

Larine 4:30 Oh, I’m gonna cry.

Rowena 4:32 You can see why she’s in PR, she did the same thing to me in a way as well. She planted the seed with me about two years ago about the magazine as well. I was like, Yeah, I want a part of that and then she sort of…

Larine 4:42 Oh, that’s because when I sit up late at night, breastfeeding my children thinking not both at the same time, they’re different ages, but but I’d sit up late at night, you know, plotting how I was going to take over the world. You know, my husband and I, you know, we joke that we’re pinky in the brain, you know, what are we doing tonight brain? Planning to take over the world one magazine at a time. You know, it’s that sort of ridiculous nonsense that we carry on with so…

Rowena 5:09 Loved pinky in the brain.

Larine 5:11 Yeah, it was great.

Rowena 5:12 I still quoted as well so that explains a lot about why we get along. Although I feel like there’s definitely days I’m a lot more connected closely to pinky than brain

Larine 5:22 Oh when I had baby brain and when I when I had mummy brain, I was definitely pinky on those days. But yeah,

Rowena 5:28 The next question I have and this one might make Larine tear up again. What do you value most in each other in your work relationship?

Nikki 5:37 For me, I think what I value most is Larine’s vision, her it’s not determination but it’s just like her commitment.

Larine 5:46 Stubbornness

Nikki 5:46 No, not stubbornness. Like it’s, you’re just so committed you believe 100% in what we’re doing, I think you know, having just stepped out of full time work. I have been a lot slower to get there and I’m probably still working on that. But particularly like this year, as we’ve sort of started this venture and COVID has hit and everything has changed. Everyone’s in the same situation. You know, if it wasn’t for Larine, I’d probably still be like rocking back and forth and corner somewhere. Whereas Larine she’ll have, might have a pity party for 30 seconds and then it’s like okay, well, what are we going to do then and yeah, her vision is just so strong that I’m really grateful that I have that and there’s always somebody just pushing ahead no matter what.

Larine 6:35 For me with Nikki I think it’s that I feel like we’re each other’s yin and yang and I joke about that all the time. Like Nikki is my calm like when I’m running around like a chook with my head cut off going we’ve gotta do this and what about this and have we thought about this? And Nikki will be like, yes, but Larine First, we need to do this. And so it’s Nikki’s calming presence that I love and also her work ethic. I don’t know anyone that can churn through the sheer volume of work that Nikki churns through because I will go and look at the fridge, go and put on a load of washing and in the meantime, Nikki’s done, you know, all this work. Nikki’s honest with me like, you know, we if I have an idea, she’ll say yeah, that’s great Larine but have you thought about this? Like, she’s my my realism, I think. And so yeah, she’s my Nikki’s, my Zen.

Nikki 7:25 And I think that’s probably how we can find a happy balance. Because, you know, I definitely feel that too. Like it’s a symbiotic relationship.

Larine 7:32 Yeah, if we were both manic it would be awful.

Rowena 7:34 So you just chuck me in the mix once in a while to get the magazine going. And I just sort of like mess with everything.

Larine 7:40 No, no, it’s good. We need to we need all the types all mixed in there. And that’s the thing we, with Nikki and I think both by nature are very collaborative people. And we love we don’t ever think that we both have all the answers. And so we when we work with people, we love getting their input and ideas as well because they might just bring you know, help us to get from this level to this level and just raise our game that little bit. So, you know, we we want to always be learning and striving and improving what we do you know, having fun along the way.

Rowena 8:11 That actually perfect segue into my next question, which is all about collaboration over competition. So we all come from corporate backgrounds. And I feel like in so many ways women feel like we have to fit within a certain box in those corporate spaces, and the competition isn’t necessarily always the healthiest. And now that you guys are in a space where you can basically drive your own values and the fact that you value collaboration over competition. What other ways do you do that to build community around you and your business?

Larine 8:44 I don’t know. That’s it. That’s a tricky one because I feel like it’s just about positivity. And if you share a common goal, which for us really is about growing the community that we live in improving the quality of people’s lives, bringing positivity there. To the region that we live, because we do live in a low socio economic area with high unemployment. But that’s not our entire story. And there’s a lot of really great things happening here too. And so, I think because we go in with an attitude of how can we all work together to achieve a common goal, I think that is how we get people to come on board and come on that journey with us. The only people we should be in competition with is ourselves. And that is to improve what we do. It’s not to compete with anyone else. Don’t get me wrong, if some bitch came in and stole our ideas, I’d want to thump them. But but for the most part, you know, like, we don’t want to reinvent the wheel. You know, like we’re running a magazine. Yes. Just to give you one example of how we collaborate. You know, there’s lots of different events, promotional platforms and things here in our region. And you know, everyone in the market research we did for the magazine early on, everyone said, Oh, we want to we want an event section in the magazine. We thought, okay, we’ll do that. But rather than us reinvent the wheel, we’re going to draw together information from four different event platforms in Bundaberg. And the five of us will join together and collaborate rather than working competition to each other. So like we’ve got one that’s a tourism focus one that’s council community events, focus one that’s geeks, one that’s for kids events and things. So between us, we sort of bring all those together rather than us redoing something that other people are already doing. And the other thing is to I think you have to have confidence that you’re not really in competition with people because no one can do it. Like we do it.

Rowena 10:39 Yep

Larine 10:39 Sorry, I know that sounds arrogant, but it’s true. Like if you’re confident in what you do, and you know you’re good at it, then don’t be afraid to say that and other women shouldn’t be too either. Sorry, I’ll get off my soapbox now.

Rowena 10:52 I believe that more people need to be on that soapbox and in a positive light. I’m in so many Facebook groups now. Or I was in the past and I’ve unfollowed them, but the ones that I’ve stayed in, and the ones that I choose to be an active member of that is really uplifting environments, everyone is stepping up to the mark in that positive space and everyone is stepping up and in a unique way these days and realising the value in that there is space for all of us. So Larine has had a huge public relations background. And I’m going to be honest, when I first heard the term PR, I had to look up what it stood for a few years ago. So for people that possibly have a slightly antiquated view of what public relations means, in a modern world, what do you believe that public relations can do for a business and the importance of it in today’s society?

Larine 11:43 There are so many people nowadays calling themselves marketers and saying that they do marketing when really it’s almost like they’re interchanging the word sales for marketing. And I find the same thing happens sometimes with public relations and marketing, but public relations really is enhancing your reputation as an organisation or individual and public relations can be everything from community event participation, to speaking at conferences, to writing letters to your stakeholders to, I mean, really, it’s how you engage with your audience. And in terms of what it can add to business, if you’ve got a story to tell, and it’s newsworthy or has some news value to it, you have the power to get some great publicity for your business without paying for it. And that’s a really a really key thing, I think. And that’s where, you know, Nikki and I, in the magazine, sometimes if businesses have got a great story to tell, we will try and sway them from a traditional advertisement to an actual article because it’s always, I guess, probably when you look at it in terms of editorial content, the difference between PR and marketing probably would be you know, marketing is quite often you saying how good you are, whereas PR is gettingother people to say how good you are. And I think that is probably a bit of a distinction as well. But yeah, it’s really just reputation management and building trusting relationships with people I would say.

Rowena 13:11 That would have been really useful to know when I didn’t know what PR stood for. So thank you. So I know that both of you met through quite traditional print publications, which I’m a print girl through and through, I still love the smell of fresh print off the printer. I kind of weirdly like the smell of toner. There’s just something about print. And I think it’s because I came from a time when I first started going out into a graphic design field that having something in print as a graphic designer was the pinnacle because there was just so much thought and so much consideration put into it because they knew that it was such an investment and it needed to achieve a really specific goal.

Larine 13:55 It’s a little bit the same Rowena when you’ll never forget the feeling you have with your first byline in a newspaper, like that just stays with you forever. And you know, and then you you know, you’ve reached another level in your career when they start quoting your your work in books and biographies and things that are written about people like you get a real kick out of that, you know, because those journo were usually and graphic designers were usually behind the scenes. So it’s nice occasionally, when you get a bit of credit for what you’ve done.

Rowena 14:23 I have to admit, I was rather chuffed to have my photo in the magazine.

Nikki 14:27 Yeah, well wouldn’t be a magazine, without our star team.

Rowena 14:30 I have noticed that you’ve shared a lot of articles recently with a lot of publications that are seemingly going under because they possibly haven’t move with the times or just because it is such a hard sell these days. And I’m of the thought process that it’s kind of like when you look at Apple versus some of the other computer industries that possibly haven’t kept up with this. It’s about innovation, and it’s about creative thinking because print used to be really expensive. It used to be the way that people communicated like there wasn’t any other options. Basically, there wasn’t web there wasn’t this…

Larine 15:05 I think there’s a little bit more to it than that, though. I mean, our whole landscape’s changed, you know, back in the day of good old newspapers. They were owned by one family, they weren’t publicly listed companies that needed to maximise their profits for all of the shareholders. It was a bit of a love job for the owners, I think a lot of the time. So there’s that there’s the rise of social media. But I think also, you know, all the feedback we get locally is a big part of it is actually loyalty. So, you know, for example, we have advertisers that have come to us and said, You know, I used to book for the last 10 years, I’ve had the front page of the paper every Saturday, and now they’ve told me I can’t have it because Woolworths is going on there. So they’re favouring these big guys that pay more money over the little local businesses, which shows them that they’re not really valued. They’ve sent a lot of their graphic design work overseas. You know, there’s all those sorts of issues that play into it. But interestingly Rowena there is a common perception that print is dying. And that may be true in the newspaper field. But Nicki pulled up some research the only the other day that actually showed that lifestyle magazines have actually increased significantly, not just through COVID. But even before that, they then rise in popularity, they may not be buying them from newsagents, but they’re getting delivered to their homes because people are wanting lifestyle,

Rowena 16:30 And it’s very true. Nikki, what else do you have to say around that?

Nikki 16:34 Well, I was just going to say, in terms of local newspapers, obviously, you know, News Corp have decided not to continue publishing most of their regional and smaller titles, but I think newspaper print decline has been of its own making, like even when, you know, we were working in newspapers, which, you know, sort of sounds long ago, but probably wasn’t like, you know, 15 to 20 years ago. Even then it was hyper local, it was publishing the social notices and about the sense sales on the school fetes. It was publishing that it was publishing photos, it was

Larine 17:12 Criticising councils for rate increases, and who’s going to do that now?

Nikki 17:16 Yeah, it was just it was doing the little things that people got a kick out of seeing in their paper. And as they’ve tried to do this hybrid into digital, it really has become churnalism. It’s become reliant on whatever they can find on Facebook. Questions are being asked…

Larine 17:33 Yeah, we used to get our stories at the pub.

Nikki 17:37 So all of a sudden, you know, I do think people stopped buying the paper but I think that’s because that it wasn’t reflective of what they wanted to see. Whereas you know, now I think, you know, publications like ours, we can show people what they want to see you know, and positivity about the region and and that sort of thing.

Larine 17:56 And I remember I was living in Adelaide working for Australian Associated Press and I remember being at a media dinner one night and talking to people about and that was right at the height of where they were starting to talk about introducing paywalls and things like that for digital subscriptions. And depending on what stories got the highest click rates online during the day, they were letting that dictate where they got placed in the paper. So papers or the way stories are laid out in a paper is really dictated based on newsworthiness and value and all those there’s a whole lot of factors that go into it, but they were allowing what people were clicking on to dictate where the story would be placed in the paper. And at the time, the concerning thing with that is that it seemed to me that what the news bosses weren’t realising is that there are two distinctly different audiences. So the people that were reading the newspaper online at that point, were typically young people who work in offices and sit at computers all day, whereas the older people or people with families were the ones reading the paper. So they had different interest. And that’s why we’ve now seen the rise of celebrity news and, you know, scandal and soap type stuff over versus the coverage of real news and Nikki only posted on this on Facebook yesterday. But I think Nikki had a really pertinent point, which was that

Nikki 19:16 I don’t think people don’t like print. I think they just didn’t like, you know, what was being included in it or it wasn’t reflective, or, you know, I feel like, you know, we’ve always said people want to stop the scrolling. They want, they want something decent to read. So,

Larine 19:32 Yeah, and I think to the point Nikki raised the other day is that, you know, confirmation bias is a thing. And Nikki pointed out to me, you know, when you pick up a newspaper, there’s other stories that you wouldn’t normally read that are suddenly put in front of you and you learn about something that’s bigger than yourself that you might may not have considered before. Whereas with online news, there’s such a vast array of stuff on there that you only. You only click on things and read things that fit and conform to your worldview. And so that it’s not diversity, diversifying people’s minds, and teaching them things about things that are bigger than themselves. And I think that’s a really sad thing.

Rowena 20:15 And I think it probably also with regards to pulling value in print as well, is that a lot of people have a very traditional view of what print is. It’s a flyer, it’s a business card. It’s it’s these things that they’ve kind of got an antiquated view on a little bit. And I feel that so many people have gone to the other extreme, and suddenly, they’re doing everything online. But I’ve worked in advertising agencies before and the fact that you guys are in marketing. For me, both of those spaces are about coming up with creative solutions to sell things in a different way or to present yourself in a different way. When print went really cheap. Let’s be honest, there was a period where print was really expensive back in the day and it had everything went through like ten proofing process before you even could get to send something to the printer. Then it went through a really cheap time, you know, when suddenly everything went digital, and suddenly everything was a lot more mass manufactured and the value of it distinctly decreased. I remember, you know, people tuning out just crap, like there was no value put on what was going out there. And I feel like we’re we’re on the upward swing again now, where people are starting to put value again into something that adds to their lives, or tells a story in a different way. And I think people forget that print can do that.

Nikki 21:37 I think like as a marketer, you know, it’s something really important, like, you know, and we say it all the time with the magazines, like don’t put all your eggs in one basket. And you know, there’s nothing that can replicate being able to pick up something and hold it in your hands and look at it and turn it over. And, you know, it goes for advertising and marketing and publishing and everything like I still to this day, I would say I’m a digital person, I am majority digital, I don’t generally watch free to air, TV, all that kind of thing. But I still pick up all the flyers out of the letterbox and you know, see what’s happening out there and you know what services I might need and, you know, take away like, all that sort of things. So you can’t underestimate the power of print and what it can do for your business.

Larine 22:27 And, and there’s other things too, like I recently had a business, a new business to town and I suggested to them that they do a leaflet drop, letterbox drop and a friend of theirs who’s a marketing experts in letterbox drops don’t work and no one does them blah, blah, blah. They got so many leads from that letterbox drop and apart from the initial cost of graphic design and printing. The letterbox drop I think was about $40 to 1000 letter boxes. They got so many leads from it, you know, there’s a reason that Big W and Kmart and all of those big guys still do mass mail catalogues and it’s because they work. You know, we forget those things, not everyone is on social media. I know that that’s where a large portion of your focus should be. But you know, Nikki and I speak about it all the time and say to people don’t do all your marketing through social media because if your page or platform suddenly gets shut down tomorrow, you lose all of those contacts. And you now have no way of communicating with your clients. So you know, there’s there’s a lot of things that some people consider to be old school that you know, sometimes the the tried and tested methods are the best.

Rowena 22:47 And that actually brings me full circle. A lot of where my clients are based is actually not locally, and it’s a space that I’m slowly looking at stepping out into and you guys have mastered this you guys are involved in your community and you know what’s going on. So for what advice would you give people that they’re looking at stepping into their local space? What ways have you seen that one have impact and two things that they could be doing to making more connections in their local community.

Larine 24:09 I think if you haven’t been there for a long time, like you’ve got to remember Nikki was born here and has lived here for a long time. I moved here from Sydney when I was 16. And then moved away again to go to uni, came back again to start my career at the paper and then I went off travelling for 10 or 15 years for work as well, and then have come back to have a family and start the magazine. So we have well established relationships here, but certainly the new relationships are built just through talking to people. You know, when you go into a shop and you buy something, just get chatting to the shop owner. You know, it sounds silly, but we have got so many leads for our magazine just through chatting to people and it takes a bit of time, but it’s well worth it and then you you get an understanding of what makes that business tick who the owners are and what they actually need to help them strive and succeed, rather than this cookie cutter one size fits all approach because we do have a few whiz bang marketing gurus here. But a lot of the time, they try to apply these really slick marketing tactics. And we’ve even tried them ourselves in our own business. So it’s not like we haven’t had failures we have. We’ve tried some of those slick email sales techniques and things that you’re told you should be doing in business. And they’ve just flopped and we’ve had far more success with picking up the phones and just going out and actually talking to people in person so I think it’s what works for your business specifically, if you are an online business then go with online but really, it’s just knowing who your client avatar or persona is and and how they work and operate. You know, if you’re dealing with older people, there’s no sense doing all your marketing digitally. I mean, I’m doing stuff at the moment for new skin cancer clinic that’s coming to town. A lot of their patients are older people, you know, yes, we will do some digital marketing for them, but a large portion of it will be through radio and and

Nikki 26:08 Not the newspaper.

Larine 26:09 No, well, it won’t be around.

Nikki 26:11 Anymore.

Larine 26:11 But um, and the magazine and and those sorts of things. So you know, it’s really knowing who your audience is more than anything,

Rowena 26:18 Right ladies, best tips that you have for PR, marketing and print. What would you say to people if they’re looking at stepping into those spaces?

Nikki 26:27 Well, for marketing, like what I find is most small businesses just get really overwhelmed with marketing. And they don’t know what to do or they think they can’t do it, or they struggled to sort of see what sort of value that it can add to their business. But I think the biggest thing is to just take a little bit of time and it doesn’t have to be a lot of time but a little bit of time, just to plan it out and break it down. So it doesn’t become this huge task of like, oh, I’ve got to plan out all this social media stuff or I’ve got to, you know, plan emails or write blogs or, you know, do this, like, work out for your business what that should look like over a month. And maybe that’s only four things. And if it’s only four things, we’ll be like, okay, we’ll do one thing away. So it’s about taking a look at at what you want to do what you need to do, and just breaking it down into really manageable steps and do one thing at a time. You just, it’s impossible to try and start from nothing and do everything all at once. You just can’t do it. So do one thing at a time, break it down into small steps. And you know, if it’s just not your thing, put your time into something that you’re good at and get someone else to do.

Larine 27:41 I think I think that’s a really good point Nik because we see so many people that we come on board that they bring us in and say we need your help, and we go in there and they’ve got Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, website, blogs, emails, and that’s fine if you’re really big business, but if they’re not doing any of them well, and might only post on LinkedIn or Twitter once every six months, then what’s the point in doing it at all, like master one or two platforms and then move on to the others, I think, you know, get your head around one and then go, okay, we’ve mastered that one. Now let’s add another one. Don’t fall into the trap of feeling like you need to be on all of them. Because ultimately, your audience may not be on Twitter or LinkedIn, you know.

Nikki 28:26 Because I worked with one business and they really wanted to get their marketing sorted. They were very overwhelmed with it. But they were very particular about what they wanted to say they wanted to use their own tone of voice and sort of have it the way they wanted it. So I was able to sort of just help them come up with a bit of a strategy and say, alright, well, these are the things you should do on these days. And this is when you should do these things. And once they had a plan that they could see and it’s like, oh, okay, so I know I only have to do one of these or two of these or whatever, then they will, it’s it’s more manageable and they can delegate it where they need to and they still have that creative control of what they want to do.

Rowena 29:11 And I think it’s a really powerful concept as well with regards to marketing is you know, you’re not going to, everyone jumps in feet first basically and needs all the things and is ready for the next whiz bang thing and oh my gosh, we should be on Tick tock, but it needs to be

Nikki 29:27 What’s that? Traditional print girl over here.

Rowena 29:32 You’re not going to see results like if you just jump in feet first, without doing it with any purpose behind it, then you’re going to lose being able to actually analyse whether it’s had an effect, if you’re spreading yourself that thin. Look at really providing some value and some content that’s really going to connect in a space that your people are actually hanging out, hands down is going to have more effect than spreading yourself too thin and and just going well I can’t be bothered anymore.

Nikki 29:57 And I think my my top tip for print would be hire a graphic designer like that just has to…

Rowena 30:02 Ding ding ding

Nikki 30:03 Yes, ding ding ding. You know I’m not I’m not trying to, you know, butter you up or, you know, do any like that

Larine 30:09 Yes you are, don’t lie

Rowena 30:12 Butter away I’m okay with it.

Nikki 30:15 If you are going to the effort to put something into print, make it look beautiful, make it look like your brand. I have seen some just shocking stuff that people have done up themselves on their computer and it just devalues everything you would try and do as a brand. So I just think if you’re going to the effort to put something in print, make it beautiful.

Larine 30:37 Cool. Um, I think from a PR perspective, I have three words for you. And I hope I didn’t go blank midway through. Hold on. I’ll repeat that. No, I have…

Rowena 30:50 (inaudible)

Larine 30:52 Interview terms of PR I have three words for you. Consistency, repetition and authenticity. And the reason I say those three things is that there’s an old rule in politics that you have to say something 10 times for someone to hear it once. So write your business mission or your or your slogan or your catchphrase or your branding guideline, and use that again and again and again, all the time. Be consistent. So if you say you’re going to do something, do it, you know, be consistent in your approach your, messaging, your timing, so that people know they can rely on you and your business, as well. And the other thing about being authentic. So I ran an election campaign a few years ago, there was a lot of pressure on the candidate to come out and criticise his opponent very strongly, but this guy was a really positive person in the community and wanted to remain positive and didn’t want to change who he was to run for election. So we ran a positive campaign, despite people constantly breathing down our neck saying we should be doing this, that and the other. And he was one of the very few people that completely bucked the trend to win the seat and go against the grain of where the swing was in terms of the pendulum during that election. So so if you’re authentic, people can see that and they will back you for it and support you for it. So just be true to who you are.

Rowena 32:51 And I think that’s a perfect time to finish. So thank you ladies for coming to Work Wife Wine Time. I think you’ve definitely earned your cold beverage of choice this afternoon or two, maybe three. And yeah, and I look forward to chatting to you guys soon.

Nikki 33:04 Thank you.

Larine 33:05 Bye.